Sunday, 22 November 2020

The Lost Cottages - Cae Tacnal Fulling Mill, Caerhun Parish

This is another of my favourite little local ruins, because I grew up with the freedom to play and explore around it. I haven't been able to find any information online about this place, but local knowledge is that it was a fulling mill. It's such a modest little ruin that you'd barely know it was there when approaching from the road side, although it is more visible from across the stream.

A footpath runs across the field just up the hill from the mill. The building is at Ordnance Survey grid reference SH 7529 7019, but isn't marked on the current map. It does appear, unroofed, on the 1888-1913 map. My guess is that the place is post-mediaeval, but I imagine that it's a good few hundred years old. The name of the building is unknown, if it had one. The farm nearby is Cae Tacnal, and the fulling mill itself would have been referred to as a pandy.


Buildings like this serve to remind us that the countryside of our past wasn't necessarily a peaceful, non-industrial place. The hill is still used for farming, but in the past small scale industry would have run alongside. Further down the lane is a spot known as an area for lime burning, to make quicklime. In farmhouses there would have been a variety of industries; baking, churning, and the spinning and weaving associated with small scale, personal use fabric production. 

It seems that fulling cloth would have been a noisy, smelly, labour intensive process, designed to clean and remove the natural oils from woven woollen fabrics, to help the dyes take, and to tighten the loose fibres of the cloth. The cloth would have first been treated with urine, then with Fuller's earth - more often known now for its use as cat litter - and washed with soapwort. Soapwort is certainly grown locally. It abounds in our garden.


From the north side the mill is almost entirely invisible, sitting as it does down in the bank of the stream. When the mill was in use the walls would have been higher, and visible from this side. 


This western cell appears to be where the waterwheel, and so any associated machinery, would have been sited. The size of this little building makes me think the fulling that went on here was a local affair, perhaps serving only the neighbourhood houses and their domestic needs. Local women would have spun wool and woven cloth to be made into everything from flannel underwear to blankets, and parts of their everyday wear which have become known as the Welsh national costume. See some amazing photos of formidable looking late 19th century Welsh women in their national dress here

There's a curiously strong sense of neighbourly connection in the thought that the inhabitants of nearby houses would have donated urine to the cause, and probably had their fabrics treated at the mill with this mixture. The urine cleaned the cloth as well as whitening it.


The eastern cell is almost entirely demolished, and from this angle presents as little more than a pile of mossy stones. It seems that hot water would have been very necessary for the fulling process; the first stage was to apply soap and hot water and trample the cloth in a washtub (or, more efficiently, between rollers), for an initial cleaning. It seems more likely to me that, if the building had a fireplace, it would have been in this second cell, while the first was devoted to the mill machinery.


This turn of the (20th) century postcard of a pandy at Dolgellau shows that it's possible for these buildings to be quite small, and the Cae Tacnal pandy would probably have looked more imposing when it was complete. The man in the doorway provides scale. There's no chimney on this mill, which implies water was not heated in this building. Some pictures of fulling mills show them with chimneys, and some without.
 
This mill has an overshot wheel, which could have been 70% efficient. I think the height of the Cae Tacnal pandy's mill pond above the building would have been quite sufficient to run an overshot wheel, with water arriving through a wooden aquaduct.


From little to large; up the valley in Trefriw, a fulling mill a little higher up the river led to the eventual building of this huge three-roofed mill for weaving woollen products. This mill has been owned by the same family since 1859, but this building was constructed, according to the History Points site, in 1970. My mother remembers visiting the old mill shop - then a wooden building, to her memory - to buy a blanket to take with her to university in the 1960s. The 1888-1913 map shows the two earlier mills that stood on the site; a corn mill and a saw mill.

The difference between these two mills shows a fascinating dichotomy, almost like the evolution of species. While the tiny local fulling mill has become extinct, and often these mills are remembered only by the inclusion of 'pandy' in place names, this business has expanded into mechanical weaving, evolving to keep a strong foothold in the modern world. The Trefriw Woollen Mills make distinctive, bright and beautiful cloth weaves that can be recognised anywhere, and have always had a place in our home.


The eastern cell of the tiny Cae Tacnal mill does still have a small corner of the east wall intact. This end wall is too demolished, though, to see if it once held a fireplace.


From the stream side, more of both cells appears intact. Although some of the cornerstones have been faced, in general the construction is quite rough.


Looking over into the eastern cell from the stream side. It seems that most of the rubble is inside the walls.


Looking down into the western cell from the north side. If this is where the mill machinery was it would also be the locus for most of the noise. The water wheel would have powered large wooden mallets which beat the cloth to clean it and tighten the weave. See a diagram of the typical machinery here.


The hole through the wall to the stream - a fun place to crawl through as a child, although more of a squeeze as an adult. This hole is a little puzzling, not knowing enough about the mechanics of these things. There is definitely wear on the lower stone from something turning. But the gap through the walls seems very low down, if it were supposed to hold a shaft going to the centre of a wheel. Also, I'm not sure why the hole would need to be so big. The lowness could be explained by a silted up wheel pit. There certainly is a lot of silt in the stream bed immediately on the other side.


A closer look at the worn hole in the stone forming the bottom of the hole through the wall.

The fulling process, after the initial washing, would have been threefold. The first run would full the cloth (beating it with mallets powered by the water wheel) in stale urine. The second run would full it with Fuller's earth, a type of clay particularly good at absorbing oil and dirt. The third would use soap, probably from the soapwort plant, to give it a final clean. The process would both clean and thicken the cloth.


Just above and to the right is a little nook in the wall. Possibly this was original. Little nooks like this are quite often seen in similar walls. Alternatively, a rock could simply have fallen out.


A bird has taken advantage of this little space to build a sheltered, if low down, nest. This nest has been here for a few years.


The south-western corner of the western cell, which is level with the ground behind the western wall. It's uncertain how much deeper the cell goes, because the floor is covered in fallen stones.


The western cell from the stream side. The stream flows directly past the corner of this cell, only just out of frame across the bottom of the photograph. A wheel pit would have been in part underneath this tree, and could easily have filled in over time.


A closer look at the low-down hole through the wall. If there once were a wheel pit dug out here, no sign remains.


About a hundred yards up the stream are what appear to be the remnants of a dam, presumably creating a mill pond to control the flow of water to the wheel. Neighbours from nearby Pant Yr Iwrch recalled the stream being much fuller in their youth, and being able to catch quite large fish. Since that time a leat has been built across the mountain, diverting a lot of the water from the streams that run down into the valley.


Standing on top of the dam remnant, looking up the stream. With this dam in good repair, a sizeable pool could have been created here.



Looking back down at the dam remnant. It's quite a solid wall but there don't seem to be signs of one on the other side of the flow. It's possible any remains would have been washed away in floods, especially if destabilised by the trees growing there. Perhaps the centre of the dam was controlled with a wooden gate.


Somewhere near the mill there would also have been a tenter's field. This would be a flat space with a tentering frame erected, upon which the fulled cloth would be stretched, and fixed with tenterhooks, to enable it to dry flat and without distortion. It also stretched a little more length into the fabrics shrunken by the fulling process. A rather interesting snippet on one site mentions that there was an 'Act of Parliament against stretching cloth excessively, passed in 1550, and directed particularly at the Welsh cloth makers.' 

There are some reasonably sized, reasonably level fields next to this fulling mill, so perhaps the tentering frame would have been sited there. No trace remains, however. It's unknown if any evidence of this survives in the field names.


Sources: http://www.witheridge-historical-archive.com/fulling.htm
https://www.tuckershall.org.uk/hall/history/processes/14-fulling-or-tucking
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulling
https://www.cumbria-industries.org.uk/wool/fulling-mills-in-cumbria/
Crankshaw, William P. (1927). Report on a Survey of the Welsh Textile Industry Made on the Behalf of the University of Wales. Cardiff: University of Wales Press Board.
I also thank staff at the Trefriw Woollen Mills for their help. 


Wednesday, 18 November 2020

The Lost Cottages - Brwynog Uchaf, Llyn Cowlyd, Llanrhychwyn Parish

Brwynog Uchaf occupies an elevated position above Dyffryn Conwy, at the end of the winding road which connects Trefriw with Llyn Cowlyd. A lack of rubble and a rather uniform height to the ruined walls suggests the place has been deliberately demolished, perhaps with the stone being robbed out for other projects, rather than a slow decay after abandonment. The weather for this visit was bad, verging towards atrocious, and it gives one a picture of what it might have been like living up here year-round. Summers might have been idyllic in some ways, but winters would have been marked by cloying mud, rain, cold, and occasionally snow. Keeping a house like this warm through the winter would have been hard work, and I don't envy the people who had to gather in the fuel - whether that was peat, wood, or coal - or those who had to keep the fires going.
 
Brwynog Uchaf will necessarily be a short post because there's so little left of the property. Its sister house, Brwynog Isaf, a few hundred yards away, is much more complete.
 

Brwynog Uchaf sits at 330 metres above sea level, just to the east of the road to Llyn Cowlyd, on an elevated but quite level area of land between Moel Eilio and Cefn Cyfarwydd. 'Brwynog' means 'abounding with rushes,' and 'uchaf' means 'higher'. (Brwynog can also mean 'sorrowful,' but I'm hoping in this case the house was named for the former, not the latter.) Just a look at the foreground of this picture will show the property was well named.

The house can be found at Ordnance Survey grid reference SH 7463 6410.


From a little way to the north, Brywnog Uchaf can be see to nestle into a slight rise of land in the middle of this shallow valley that leads to Cowlyd, with a few pine trees marking the site of the house.


On the 1888-1913 map the house is shown describing an L shape with the top of the L in the north, but this doesn't quite tally with what's seen on the ground now. 


The house as seen from above on the current Ordnance Survey app. It seems likely that the flat area to the left of the house was built up when the road to the lake was improved, erasing some aspects of the footprint. Perhaps some of the building rubble is under this area, which is now a parking spot. 


Brwynog Uchaf as seen on the 1888-1913 map. It is possible to trace this building footprint over what remains today, which helps to make sense of the ruin.


What appears to be a doorway in the southern face of the house or outbuilding. All that can be told from the 1888-1913 map is that the whole L shape was roofed, not which part of the building was a house and which may have been outbuildings.
 
A little research online shows that the house played an interesting part in the history of Christian worship in the area. An entry on the Genuki website from the Hanes Eglwysi Annibynnol Cymru (History of the Welsh Independent Churches) by Thomas Rees & John Thomas, in 1871, speaks about the use of the house as a chapel before a dedicated chapel was built. I include the extract in full below. 

BRWYNOG

(Siloh chapel, at Dolgarrog in Llanbedr-y-cennin parish)

Mewn amaethdai y cyfarfyddir yma i addoli er dechreuad yr achos. Mae mewn llanerch uchel, ryw dair milldir o Drefriw, heb fod yn mhell o lyn Cowlyd. Dechreuwyd cynal moddion crefyddol yma mor foreu a'r flwyddyn 1814, trwy offerynoliaeth Elin Jones, merch Cwmanog, yr hon a briododd รข John Roberts, Brwynog Uchaf. Deuai aelodau Trefriw yma i gynal cyfarfodydd gweddio, ac yn achlysurol deuai rhai o bregethwyr cynorthwyol Bethesda yma i bregethu. Pan y byddai y tywydd yn rhy ystormus i gael pregethwr, nac i neb o Trefriw allu dyfod i fynu i gadw cyfarfod gweddi, cynhalient ysgol ddwywaith y Sabbath, oblegid nad oedd yma etto aelodau crefyddol i gynal y moddion. Yn y flwyddyn 1828 cafwyd yma ddiwvgiad grymus, ac yr oedd Robert Roberts, mab Brwynog Uchaf, a William Griffith, mab y Pant, yn mysg y dychweledigion cyntaf. Mae y blaenaf yn awr yn ddiacon yn Nhrefriw, ac heb golli gwres ei gariad cyntaf. Ffurfiwyd yma eglwys o ugain neu bump ar hugain o aelodau, ac y mae yr achos yn parhau yma hyd yn awr. Symudwyd y moddion o'r Brwynog Uchaf, i'w gynal yn olynol yn y Brwynog Isaf, y Garegwen, a'r Pant; ond yn awr Brwynog Isaf yw cartref mwyaf cyffredin yr arch. Bu y lle yn hir dan ofal Mr. J. Williams, Caecoch; ond wedi iddo ef fethu cyrchu yma, Mr. Griffith, Trefriw, sydd yn gofalu yn benaf am y lle. Bu llawer o siarad am gael capel bychan i'r ardal, a hyderir y llwyddir i'w gael. Mae yma achos bychan siriol iawn; a'r gwanwyn diweddaf cafwyd yr hyfrydwch o dderbyn pedwar o ddynion ieuaingc yn gyflawn aelodau. +

 + Ysgrif Mr. T. Roberts, Llanddeusant.

Translation by Eleri Rowlands (Feb 2010):

From the beginning of the cause people would meet in farm buildings to worship.  It is in a high glade, about three miles from Trefriw, not far from Llyn Cowlyd (Cowlyd Lake). Religious services started here as early as 1814, Elin Jones, a daughter of Cwmanog was instrumental in arranging this, she married John Roberts, Brwynog Uchaf. The members of Trefriw came here to hold prayer meetings, and occasionally some of the lay preachers from Bethesda would come here to preach. When the weather became too stormy for a preacher to come, or for anyone from Trefriw to come to a prayer meeting, they held a school twice on the Sunday, since there weren't yet any members to hold the services. In 1828 a powerful revival took place, and Robert Roberts, the son of Brwynog Uchaf, and William Griffith, the son of the Pant, were amongst the first to return. The former is now a deacon in Trefriw, but hasn't lost the heat of his first love. A church of twenty or twenty five members was formed, and the cause continues up to now.  The services were moved from Brwynog Uchaf, to be held in Brwynog Isaf, Garegwen, and Pant; but now Brwynog Isaf is the usual home of the membership. The place was under the care of Mr. J. Williams, Caecoch for a long time but when he failed to travel here, Mr. Griffith, Trefriw, generally takes the care. Many talk of building a small chapel for the area, and we are confident they will be successful. There is a small, very cheerful cause here; and last spring they had the joy of accepting four young men in full membership. +

  + Document from Mr. T. Roberts, Llanddeusant.

 

I'm not quite sure of the period this extract refers to. The book is dated 1871, but the Siloh Chapel at Brwynog - just a few hundred yards away from the house - is mentioned by Coflein as being first built in 1824, and again in 1890. Is it possible that Coflein are confusing services held in the houses with the origin of the chapel? Aneurin Hughes from the Trefriw Historical Society, on a BBC page, mentions only that the chapel was built in 1890 and was closed by 1923, and it sounds as if services were held in the local houses at least up to 1828. If Coflein has got it wrong it makes sense for Rees and Thomas, in 1871, to be speaking as if a chapel still has not been built. It seems rather sad that the small chapel built may only have had a life of 33 years.

Two current photographs of the ruined Siloh Chapel are included near the end of my Siglen post.


Inside there are no obvious domestic features surviving, with the walls too low to show anything like joist holes. On the hill behind the silver ribbon of the road can be seen climbing upwards. This leads over and down into Trefriw, and is the only way to approach by car, despite the house being in Dolgarrog community. A number of footpaths are marked on the 1888-1913 map in the area as well as the path of what has become the modern road.


An area to the side appears to be the low wall of a pen rather than a building wall.


Looking north west, and the land is banked up behind the walls. It's hard to tell if the face of the wall at back centre is interior - the western wall of the north-south range - or exterior - the eastern wall of that range with the rest of the building buried under the land behind. It does, however, appear to have a corner running back into the land behind. It seems possible that this was the house building, and the building in which I am standing is an outbuilding.


On a subsequent visit, when the rain wasn't torrential, I took the chance to look more closely at the flat parking area that I believe buries the house. This sharp right angle of a thick stone built wall, level with the car park at the top but about six feet in height to the ground below, convinces me that the building with its long sides facing east and west - the upright of the L shape - is buried here.


Standing at the corner of the buried building, looking east. It seems more likely to me that this was the house because of the lack of an apparent fireplace in the unburied range, and simply because it seems more likely to me that on this relatively flat patch of land the front of the house would face east, not north or south. There isn't much behind this supposition beyond a sense that it would be that way. Brwynog Isaf, a little way further east, has its front facing east, as does a little stable or barn not far off. The nearby Siglen faces south, but orienting that house to face east would mean building it sideways into the hill.


Back in the probable barn, it's possible that this is another doorway in the centre of the photograph, leading into a cell.


This cell is largely filled with rubble. There may be a window at centre left in the back wall.


The window mentioned previously, this time viewed from outside, with the possible doorway opposite.


After passing through the wooden gate onto the footpath, this is looking back at the end wall of the building. It's hard to tell from this aspect if this were part of the house or barn.


Just past the gateway a stream cuts across the land, with a simple bridge made of impressive stone slabs. There had been so much rain, however, that the bridge was under about two inches of water.


Near the house was a small sheepfold or pen. The map shows other structures, probably pens, on the other side of the road.


On the other side of the road, a small rectangular structure lies in ruin. This and the subsequent two photos were taken on my later visit.


The rectangular structure on the other side of the road.


It's possible that there is another enclosure or building up on the hill on this western side of the road. Limited time meant I couldn't investigate.


A surprise on a visit to St Mary's Church in Trefriw, a church of thirteenth century origin but mostly dating from the 15th and 16th centuries. This aged gravestone right by the path caught my attention, and I saw that it was the marker for John Roberts of Brwynog Uchaf, who died 6th December, 1847, at the age of 64.


The grave also remembers John's wife Elin, who died January 21st, 1862. The age may be 70, or at least seems to start with 7.

This must be the Elin who was instrumental in arranging Independent religious services up at Brwynog Uchaf, mentioned along with her husband earlier in this post. 



Saturday, 14 November 2020

The Lost Cottages - Siglan, Llyn Cowlyd, Dolgarrog

The farmhouse of Siglan sits high above Dyffryn Conwy on the south side of Moel Eilio, just east of the end of Llyn Cowlyd. Cowlyd has the distinction of being the deepest lake in North Wales, at 229 feet deep. Some of this depth is artificial, however; the lake was converted to a reservoir in 1897, and further deepened with a higher dam of 45 feet in 1921. 

Cowlyd possibly features in the Mabinogion as a valley inhabited by the Owl of Cwm Cawlwyd, although the exact location of this valley is disputed. Sioned Davies, in her recent translation, suggests an area between Llanrwst and Capel Curig is most likely, while other accounts locate it at the modern Cowlyd. The ancient Owl of Cwm Cawlwyd had overseen the growth of three forests of trees in the valley, the first one destroyed by men. Regardless of whether the place is overseen by an ancient owl, Cowlyd is quite magical in its own right, perched high above the Conwy Valley and approached by a winding road that runs through lands rarely seen by the inhabitants below.

For years Siglan must have looked out over an unparalleled view. Change would have come with the building and later expansion of the reservoir, and the great black pipe which takes water down to Dolgarrog. Still, the house sits in a wild and beautiful place.

On the map the house name is spelt 'Siglen,' which can mean bog or marsh. Although I'm generally going by the map names, in most censuses and other documents it is spelt 'Siglan.'



I wonder what the original inhabitants would have made of this huge metal pipeline stretching directly before the house? 


The house looks like a picture postcard, with the curving driveway approaching through rich green land. This home was one of the last to be abandoned up here, with the last occupant leaving in 1959.


An outbuilding is slowly collapsing to the east end of the house.


In the doorway to this outbuilding cobbles can be seen under the tumbled masonry.


The outbuilding is split into two, with a window high in the dividing wall. This would seem to indicate the eastern cell is a later extension, but there's no sign of this in the front wall of the building.


The wide lintel rests entirely at the west end on a single upright. The stones above have fallen in recent years. A photo on the Coflein website, from 2003, shows the stones still in situ. Perhaps, with its wide doorway, this cell was a cart house. 


The original ridge line is seen on the east end wall of the house, with a few slates, and even a ridge tile, still adhered to the wall. 


The house evidently had a porch, which has now gone. A photo from 2008 shows the door still in existence. 


The lower window has been blocked with a metal panel. 


The interior of the western window frames have gone, but the outer frames are still there. The chimney above is in quite good condition.


From the front, the house is almost neatly symmetrical, but not quite. 


The doorstep into the house looks a little askew but is still in situ. No wonder the front door has gone, since there's no longer frame on the right side, where it was hinged. 


Inside, the ghostly remains of the interior are present, with a large hole in the roof above. According to the photos on the sites previously linked, the roof has gone through stages of repair, with corrugated iron put on in place of slate, but trying to keep the house weatherproof is probably like fighting the tide.

See a short video of the interior here


At the west end of the house an upstairs room partition is partly hanging from the roof, unsupported in the main from below. Layers of peeling paint and wallpaper can be seen on the wood boards.



The big fireplace downstairs is a nicely solid construction, with a well milled stone lintel and some brickwork remaining.


The remains of a piece of furniture, perhaps a chair or settee, lies on the floor. This looks rather too modern to have been associated with occupation. Perhaps it was brought up by someone who made something of a den of the place after it was abandoned.


To the left of the main fireplace, marks can be seen where deep shelves would have sat in the alcove.


Upstairs, above the main fireplace, is a smaller bedroom fireplace, and a little of the floor hidden under detritus fallen from above.


The roof above, with the slates coming off the laths.


A floorboard, unsupported and rotting, resembles something from an undersea shipwreck. 


More parts of internal partition hang from the roof above. 


There seem to be layers and layers of wallpaper here on the wall, unless it were some kind of multilayered wall covering. 


High under the rafters some white painted plaster still remains on the laths. 


The floorboards here have lost support at one end, and are starting to collapse.
 

The interior is almost like a cutaway diagram, showing how the wooden internals were made.


Graffiti on the walls in the corner of the house.


To the left of the front door is this small panelled space which looks as if it used to have something attached to the middle of it.


The windowframe to the left of the door remains, although the glass is gone and the windowsill is damaged. The panel on the outside is held on by this rusty piece of iron.


In the back wall, a single tiny window looks out onto the slope.


Rubble lies on some of the remaining first floor.


A small fireplace sits at the east end of the house, perhaps for a small parlour.


In the downstairs ceiling the laths can be seen where plaster has fallen.


Part of a rusting bedframe lies on the first floor joists.


There's a large hole in the roof, but some of the laths from the upstairs ceiling can still be seen.


At the back of the house, a doorway opens onto a ruined extension.


A more modern brick fireplace sits at the back of this room. The extension was apparently only one storey.


There is a part-blocked doorway to the left, and a possible window to the right, with a fallen joist across the middle of the room.


The back wall of the original house shows significant damage.


Details of the brick fireplace in the extension.


A lintel remains over the part-blocked doorway, and the original roof-line can be seen on the back of the house.
 
 
At the west end of the house is another small extension, probably an outbuilding. A photograph from 2003 on the Coflein site shows this outbuilding as single storey and roofed with corrugated iron.


The shape of the outbuilding's roof-line is quite clear in this photo.


Inside the outbuilding is an L-shaped concrete kerb.


This blocked up opening in the western wall is rather intriguing. It looks as if there were a smaller opening directly under the larger one.


Looking out through the doorway of the outbuilding, with slate sill in situ. The little toilet outhouse is visible on the other side of the track, in the right of the doorway.


This toilet outbuilding is in a state of slow collapse, but the fact of its existence is relatively unusual compared with other cottages I've visited so far.


Across the track, to the left of the toilet, is a certain amount of rubble and debris.


Looking back across the track from the toilet, the western outbuilding can be seen, as well as a small stream, bridged over where it crosses the track, which runs directly under the toilet.


The west end of the house, with render and a chimney in apparently good condition.


At the west end of the house front a great crack runs down through the wall.


Above the door can be seen the porch roof-line, and insulators for an electrical supply.


A closer look at the insulators above the front door.


Another first floor addition on the front of the house, possibly, again, connected to an electrical supply.


The two eastern windows. The window catch can still be seen on the upper window frame.


A large walled yard in front of the house.


The view of the house from the west end.


From the outside of this western outbuilding it's possible to see three small blocked up windows at the bottom, and the one larger one above.


A little way from the house - Siglan is out of frame and behind the water pipe at the back of the photo - is the tiny ruin of Siloh Independent Chapel, a Congregational Chapel which is still marked as such on the 1888-1913 map. 


The chapel stands at grid reference SH 7440 6417. Coflein mentions that the chapel was 'built in 1824 & again in 1890. The chapel closed in 1923 and has since been demolished.' According to a Facebook commenter, 'Siloh Chapel was completely intact until the late 1960s when it was taken down to the current level. It was around the same time that the road alongside it direct to the dam was built. Prior to that all traffic to Llyn Cowlyd went up the road past Siglen.'


A little west of both chapel and Siglan farmhouse sits Llyn Cowlyd. The reservoir must be a little larger than when Siglan was built, but the lake would have still been there, beautiful, and perhaps a little more wild.